All-In Podcast: Elon Musk & Gwynne Shotwell on AI Risks and Peer Review, Starship, Terafab, SpaceX/Tesla Merger
(0:00) SpaceX's Gwynne Shotwell joins The Besties! (1:45) Gwynne's SpaceX story, selling rockets, and working for Elon (6:45) Running modern day SpaceX: AI, Starlink, Rockets, and X (13:43) Dire
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All-In Podcast: Elon Musk & Gwynne Shotwell on AI Risks and Peer Review, Starship, Terafab, SpaceX/Tesla Merger
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podcast-ingeston 2026-09-15. Auto-transcribed via AssemblyAI (universal-2,en). Speakers identified by AssemblyAI Speaker Identification using the per-podcasthost/regularshints; the resulting label→name mapping is in the frontmatter. Duration: 1h04m. Episode page: https://allinchamathjason.libsyn.com/elon-musk-gwynne-shotwell-on-ai-risks-and-peer-review-starship-terafab-spacextesla-merger. Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/allinchamathjason/Gwynne_Elon_AIS26_Ch.mp3?dest-id=1928300.
Show notes (from RSS)
(0:00) SpaceX's Gwynne Shotwell joins The Besties!
(1:45) Gwynne's SpaceX story, selling rockets, and working for Elon
(6:45) Running modern day SpaceX: AI, Starlink, Rockets, and X
(13:43) Direct to cell with Starlink, retiring rockets, competition
(18:34) Data centers in space
(22:00) Management at SpaceX
(27:37) Elon Musk joins: AI's real risk, model peer review, what he meant by "Dario is right"
(36:53) Elon and Gwynne on their working relationship, Starship's future
(46:16) Terafab, Tesla, Flying cars?, merging Tesla and SpaceX
(52:51) Lying AIs, how to do AI peer review right
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Transcript
Elon Musk: Quick question, what's our latest timeline on getting to Mars?
Gwynne Shotwell: Getting to Mars, Oh, I think will put people down within a decade. Welcome Gwen Shotwell, the president and COO of SpaceX.
C: She's an instrumental, a really crucial person to the success of SpaceX.
David Friedberg: She's really the glue, you know, she's
C: the glue to the tornado.
Gwynne Shotwell: Fail fast, learn fast. Make your design robust. I would be disappointed if we didn't have a settlement on the moon.
David Friedberg: The space and AI firm has officially made history on its $75 billion I debuting with a market value of $1.7 trillion.
Gwynne Shotwell: The most efficient place to put inference compute is on orbit. Manage risk, don't avoid it.
C: Please welcome Gwen Shotwell. Hey, thank you so much for coming. Coming. Right here, right there. Welcome.
Elon Musk: Thank you.
David Sacks: Thanks for being here.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's good to be here.
David Friedberg: Nice to see you.
Gwynne Shotwell: Nice to see you.
David Sacks: Well, we really appreciate you coming out. How's it going at SpaceX?
Gwynne Shotwell: You know, we're bored. There's nothing going on, not a lot happening. I've got all the time in the world. And by the way, Gwen, Elon has more time, by the way.
C: Yeah, I mean You've been at SpaceX forever. Are you the longest tenured employee after Elon?
Gwynne Shotwell: After Elon, yeah. In fact, my 24th anniversary was the 9th of September last week sometime.
Jason Calacanis: Wow.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, yeah.
C: That is extraordinary.
David Friedberg: Can you take us back to the day where you initially get this call and you're like, hey, there's this thing, like what does the, the arc of the decision look like and how did you get convinced to underwrite this business? Like just walk us through that.
Gwynne Shotwell: Okay, well, Elon underwrote it, right? I just worked there. Yeah, but the story is a little crazy actually. So I was going out to lunch, one of my best friends who I was working with was going to go work for Elon and I took him out to lunch, kind of going away lunch, and he's like, oh. When I dropped him back off, he said, oh, come on in and meet Elon. Like he's busy, you know, we don't need to do that. But we did it anyhow and I met him and, and I said, hey, I think you really need, I think you need a full time person to run your business development shop. You know, you've got kind of a part timer, he's a contractor, you know, it's not a great look. And he looked at me very thoughtfully and you know, kind of scratched his head. And then we said goodbye, chatted a little bit, Said goodbye and Then I got back to my office and I got a call from Elon's assistant, Mary Bass, and she said, elon wants you to apply for the new vice president of Business development position. Can you come interview? I'm like, now? No, I have a job. I can't go now. Tomorrow. Okay, sure, tomorrow. And then it took me like four weeks to decide, yes, I was being a total idiot, but at the time,
David Friedberg: like, what was the scale of that business? What did you think it needed that it didn't have? Because it was still very much an R and D. It was very R
Gwynne Shotwell: and D. But Elon had an investment and he wanted some return. He wanted cash. Right. He wanted customers. And I was doing that work anyhow in the space industry. Turned out I was pretty good at it. But yeah. So what did it look like? I was the seventh employee to sign my contract. I gave two weeks notice and took a week off to remodel a bathroom because I knew I would never have time to do it once I started working for Elon. Came three weeks later, employee number 11. And we just got to it and we sold a rocket about 12 months later.
David Friedberg: And that's.
Gwynne Shotwell: And that's a rocket. There wasn't a rocket.
David Friedberg: There wasn't a rocket. Yeah. So what does that sales cycle look like? How do you convince somebody that they can, they can actually take that risk and maybe give you the deposit you need to start the cycle to build the thing?
Gwynne Shotwell: So the timing was great, by the way. SpaceX should never have existed. Right. If the other launch providers were great, then a new entrant can't make headway. Right. Because they were so entrenched. So we should have never made it. But turns out, you know, customer service wasn't great. Rockets were incredibly expensive. And so there was that piece, Right. And then the other piece was 9 11. At that time, the military was desperately looking for someone who could come in and do rapid launch. You know, they. They kind of knew where the bad guys were about for about four hours after the events of 9 11. And they really wanted to be able to get some capability in theater. It took us a while to do it, but we did what we said we were going to do.
David Friedberg: So it really was sort of like out of tragedy, this opportunity gets born to some extent.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah. And it wasn't specific to SpaceX. It was just the state of the industry at the time.
David Friedberg: And then obviously, very, very famous first chapter where you guys get almost to the brink and you need this last launch to work, and your role started to evolve pretty meaningfully by that point. So can you walk us through, like, what was the internal dynamics at that business that kind of, like, put you into that position?
Gwynne Shotwell: So it was very startup y. I was the sales lady. But then when you have sales, you need to manage your customers and you need a finance function. And even though we were little, and I think one of the defense contractors at the time said they're a fly on my, you know, on a giant. On my big toe or something, I was like, well, I don't think you should have flies on your toes. But so. But you still need a government affairs function. You need to defend yourself. We never go on the offensive in Washington. We're always in defense mode. But so I just kept taking on more and more. And then when we were getting our largest contract at the time, it was the cargo resupply contract, we call it CRS. And this was 2008. Elon was super busy with Tesla, quite busy at SpaceX as well. There was a lot going on and he needed a partner at the time. And I think he was trying to pick Gwen on this side or maybe one of the other guys who had kind of taken on gobbled up more technical scope. And he asked me to do it on our way to our final negotiations for this $1.6 billion contract with NASA on the Runway, like, hey, do you want to be president?
David Friedberg: I was like, do I?
Gwynne Shotwell: Well, no, not initially for like that nanosecond. Like, well, I love my job. I love the guys, my teammates. And then it's like, okay, I'm being an idiot again. Yes, I want the job.
David Friedberg: So now fast forward, maybe just to come to where we are today. The scope and the ambition of this business has expanded dramatically. I mean, it almost seems in like the last year, it's as much an AI business as it is a space business. I think Elon may have said that. I don't know if it leaked or they said it out loud about the scale.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's that by revenue and by revenue.
David Friedberg: Yeah. How do you manage now the culture of these two different businesses now that have to sort of sit under this roof and ideally work together and complement each other.
Gwynne Shotwell: So the team, you know, there's been a lot of churn at XAI for sure, and SpaceXers have kind of marched in and helped out where there were significant gaps in that arena. And we were all really excited to learn about AI. I mean, I'm an AI noob, and we have a bunch of folks that were just really excited about it and I think we all recognize Elon set the stage beautifully as he does, that if you're not using AI, if you're not leading AI, you run the risk, significant risk of being irrelevant. And there was no way that SpaceX was going to be irrelevant. It's too important to the company and the work we're doing is too important.
David Friedberg: Do you expect that the future generations of rockets will be increasingly more and more informed, built design 100% by. By these systems?
C: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yes.
David Friedberg: And how do you manage the team? You know, because you have like these incredible. I mean, literally, rocket scientists, they've trained their whole lives in a way, and now you have to help them on board to a tool chain and be comfortable with sort of what that means. Like, I don't know if you saw, for example, that all these mathematicians got really upset when I think it was OpenAI solved this very famous equation.
Gwynne Shotwell: Oh, the Navy or Stokes?
David Friedberg: The Navy. Stokes.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, I read about that. And, well, there's some debate on whether they.
David Friedberg: They brute force the solution. But then these 20 field medalists essentially said, hey, you're ruining the craft now.
David Sacks: I don't think that that's taking away the medals.
Elon Musk: Yeah, they're going to take exactly like,
David Sacks: that's, that's the career. It's not about making stuff, it's about getting awards. And now all of the awards are gone.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah. And I'd rather just have the world be a better place, a smarter place, us being better informed and solving problems than worrying about.
David Sacks: Make more stuff that.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, make more stuff.
David Sacks: What's the cultural merger been like? You've got X, you've got X. I don't know how many people are involved in X itself, Space X. I mean, are these differently managed businesses? How do you run management there? Do people kind of. Are they pretty fluid amongst the units? Do you think about them as units or how do you. How do you actually manage this?
Gwynne Shotwell: So I would say we are not fully fully integrated yet. And then we just did the cursor, you know, situation.
C: Congratulations on that.
David Friedberg: Yeah, congratulations.
C: What a purchase that was.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're great. They're great. We just closed that, I think a month ago today, actually. Yeah, so we're not fully integrated yet, but we. I think the teams are gelling really well, very kind of different verticals. But again, because of the turn that we had at XAI, so much SpaceX leadership and engineering went into that basically went in there. So I. We're getting integrated faster than I thought. It's probably not as fast as Elon wants it.
C: Yeah.
David Sacks: So one of the things that strikes me is the scale and the number of capital projects you have that you have to manage. Probably more capital projects that are more different from one another than any other organization.
David Friedberg: It's a scale of a country.
David Sacks: No, I mean, it has to be. And so I think about this Louisiana spaceport. You've got Starship, which is the most ambitious aeronautical project of all time. You've got Terrafab, which I think is one of the most inspiring and ambitious, like, projects of all time in humanity. Like, I mean, Terrafab is so incredible in its vision and the scale and what you're envisioning to do there. And then I start doing back of the envelope math, I think. I had a couple beers and I was talking with someone about Terrafab and I'm like, holy shit. Those numbers get very big, very fast, very big.
Gwynne Shotwell: Although the AI numbers are also like. I used to be horrified at our expenditures before the acquisition. You know, it's like, oh, my gosh,
David Friedberg: now you see, the compute bill seems
Gwynne Shotwell: cheap on an air separation unit. And I was like, oh, 100 million billion.
David Sacks: Do those capital. When you look at the kind of schedule of all of this over the next few years, does the capital for that sit on the balance sheet? Is it going to come from cash flows from Starlink or do you have to go back to the markets to get more capital? I mean, how do you think about where the capital comes from? I don't think anyone doubts the capacity to execute and deliver, or some people might, but I think generally the markets will say yes, but where does that capital come from?
Gwynne Shotwell: So it will come from. I would say the answer to the above is yes. I don't think we're going to, you know, I don't think we're going to release any more stock. And by the way, I don't plan on making any news on this. That's like the one downside of a public company. They told me all the things that I couldn't say and I'm like, I'm going to forget one for sure. Maybe we're going to make some news. But it will be all of the above.
David Sacks: And Starlink, I mean, is Starlink, in your view, kind of the core cash generation engine for the next couple of years for the business? Or is it compute, or is it a mix again of all the above? Like, how do you think about.
Gwynne Shotwell: So Starlink is definitely carrying its own weight, but we have a lot to go, right? Our market penetration on Starlink is 1.5 to 2% depending on which country you're in. So there's a lot of headroom there. Our revenue compared to what we do for the US military, our revenue is very small. So we expect lots of headroom there. But honestly right now, and it is a little embarrassing, but computer rental is a heck of a business.
David Sacks: Does that persist do you think or is it.
Gwynne Shotwell: We don't see any drop. We see no drop in demand at all.
C: This is tens of billions of dollars per quarter in build out. And these are a new customer base for you. Is this the business now? Is this like what percentage of the revenue is Elon Web Services at this point?
Gwynne Shotwell: It's a lot. It's a lot. I think we'll probably do some announcement quickly or here.
David Friedberg: Public again?
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, public.
C: Let's move on to something less common, controversial then. What other companies you're planning on buying.
Gwynne Shotwell: Good one. Yes, good one.
David Sacks: You know M and A, you like electric cars?
Jason Calacanis: Have I got a deal for you.
Gwynne Shotwell: I have a bunch. Batteries, electric cars, Starlink on Optimi.
David Friedberg: Welcome.
C: I'll get you a good price.
David Friedberg: Talk about actually about a deal that you did close which is you did a great deal with Echo Star.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yes.
David Friedberg: And Charlie had a bunch of spectrum that you guys were able to acquire. And I think everybody started to ask the question, wow, there's a direct to sell business.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yes.
David Friedberg: And what's the natural thing after that would be sort of like a broad based, more mobile phone service. But can you just what you can tell us where's that spectrum going to be used for? Like what's your short term plan on what the Starlink and direct to sell business looks like?
Gwynne Shotwell: Well, you know we're going to start, we have a direct to sell business right now through T Mobile. I don't think they provision all their users with it, just the people that pay the most. But our plan is to leverage instead of slices of T Mobile spectrum or slices of other teleco spectrum across the globe, we want to leverage the one that we paid a lot of money for. And with the stock increasing in price, it paid more because there was some stock involved there. So Charlie did all right there. He's a very loyal customer though he's been a customer of SpaceX for almost 20 years. So we want to leverage that to make sure that there are no dead zones. And it's shockingly there are a lot of places in the United States where you can't, without a Starlink service, you can't get cell coverage. It's really terrible. The Rest of the world is not that bad. It's particularly bad here in the United States. Texas has huge dead zones. It's where I live. And I'll never forget I was on a call with Elon and I kept dropping because of these dead zones. I was like, I'm either going to get fired or by Spectrum or I'm putting a mini on my car. And so now I have Starlink on my car.
C: Yeah, Hell, country not good for service.
Gwynne Shotwell: Not good. It's not good.
C: Not good. I'm going to have to follow suit there. I was talking to Jared. He works over at NASA. I think you guys have a roller coaster.
Gwynne Shotwell: He's so great.
C: You're great. He was awesome this morning. He was talking last night at the party, hey, you're moving on to this incredible new starship platform. It's much bigger, bigger payloads. Yeah. And then you're retiring the previous platform, is that correct? The previous rockets will eventually.
Gwynne Shotwell: The Falcon 9. Yeah, eventually, yeah. We definitely want to move from the older technology to the newer technology. If we don't obsolete our own products and services, someone's going to find a way to obsolete them for us. Look at what we did to the market. Right. The analogy is there, right? They were caught flat footed. We crushed them. Now we want to make sure we are not flat footed. So. And to achieve Elon's goals, you really need a starship.
David Sacks: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: A Falcon 9 with the dragon capsule on top is like a minivan road trip. In a minivan, the road trip to Mars is six months. So you don't want to be in the minivan.
C: But people are dependent, like NASA and many other players on your minivan. So you're going to keep that in market for some time or we're not
Gwynne Shotwell: retiring it today for sure. And there is another provider. Right. Boeing has been paid, I think probably more than we have been paid to develop their human capsule. So we're just going to let them have some business. They should fly their capsule. Government paid a lot of money for that. They should be able to use it.
C: I sense a little spiciness in the answer here.
David Sacks: When what happens with competition for Starlink? Bezos are launching things. China's got some return vehicles now. Do you think that there's going to be more competition? Obviously you guys are first in market. It's an unbelievable changeover of all of telecommunications, as you point out. 1% market share. It's barely gotten started and it's a juggernaut already. Is this going to become very competitive in the Next few years, I think
Gwynne Shotwell: it'll be very competitive. But I think the folks that really focus on the technology and customer service and really want to do a good thing for their customers will win. Tesla doesn't advertise. It's an incredible car. If your capability is incredible, people will buy it.
Elon Musk: Right.
David Sacks: And if you keep winning though, do you worry about Standard Oil, AT&T government saying this company's too big, too important, it has too much market share, it's too much of an advantage and you're bigger than governments and people get really worried and scared about that and become adversarial towards the business. How do you think about the balance with governments and government relations in that sense?
Gwynne Shotwell: I mean, we've had some adversarial relationships in the past. I think we'll manage our way through them.
C: Yes, it happens.
David Friedberg: It happens.
C: It does, it happens.
Gwynne Shotwell: But I think Elon founds incredible companies and he provides incredible products and services and we end up doing what we say we're going to do. So hopefully you build trust and you are as transparent as you can possibly be.
C: Talking about data centers in space, Elon, Supercompute.
Gwynne Shotwell: We have to rebrand data centers supercompute.
C: Supercompute in space, yes. Elon's very excited about this.
Gwynne Shotwell: I'm very excited about it, yeah.
C: Why, why is this so compelling? Because it seems, I think we're going to get through this anti data center on Earth thing. But take us through the case of why this makes sense to put them in space. Because there's expense to put them in space. Walk us through in the audience.
Gwynne Shotwell: But there is an expense to put data centers on the ground too, right? You have to buy real estate. And as soon as someone finds out that a data center or supercompute center is going in, real estate goes from 3,000 an acre to 180,000 an acre. So it's quite expensive. Time lag is incredible. The permits and the licensing is pretty stifling. Now we're space businesses that way. It's incredibly bureaucratic. So we've learned those lessons. But so time, from breaking ground to being able to actually build something, not even get your compute right, not even get your compute, but just have a building long timelines to get electrical equipment. Like people are talking about generators in three years, right? Like we need compute now. The demand is insatiable right now. People need compute now. We need it now. So why data centers in space? We own launch, right? We have great launch capability. So we feel like we. And that path is Very well known. The real estate in space is infinite.
C: It's free.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's free. You don't have to pay for it. The cooling is there. The radiator looks at the deep space. It's the coldest thing ever out there. So free cooling the sun. Elon probably has. You've probably heard Elon talk about the power of the sun. You know, we use a millionth of a millionth of the sun's energy. And you basically put these satellites in orbit that always face the sun, by the way, so you don't have solar panels on your house and you only get sun for eight hours a day.
David Friedberg: And your sister company is going to start making 100 gigawatts of the solar panels that you need for the sun.
Gwynne Shotwell: And we'll be making our own solar panels too.
David Friedberg: Okay.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah, we're building a factory outside of Austin.
C: Maybe sometime end of next year, you get one of those up there, start testing it and then, oh, for sure. 28, 29. Somebody could be a customer of this product or service maybe.
Gwynne Shotwell: So next year we will be launching, we'll launch this year, our V3 satellite for Starlink broadband. We will launch our next gen version 2. Sorry about all the version. We have version control problems, version 2 of the Starlink mobile. So instead of having to use other people's spectrum, we'll be able to use Charlie's now, our spectrum. And we're also going to launch AI computer satellites. So next year's a big year and
David Sacks: you need Starship up and running for that.
Gwynne Shotwell: We don't have to, but Starship is so much more. It's a much better machine.
David Sacks: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah.
David Friedberg: When you first encountered the white sheet design of Starship, what did you think when like you walk into that first meeting, like, guys, we have this.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's like almost all the things that Elon does. It seems really bonkers to start.
David Friedberg: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: And then it becomes reality and it's great. Like Elon said, we were going to land a rocket on a boat and we're all like, okay, let's go figure that out. And we do it. Now.
David Sacks: How much do you get involved in those engineering meetings? So he's in there breaking stuff apart. Are you in that stuff with him?
Gwynne Shotwell: Sometimes I wish. I actually, I'm an engineer and I wish. I miss it. Yeah, I really miss that kind of, that critical. Well, you can still critically think even if you're not working on engineering problems, but.
C: And he's not a big fan of the management layer. It's engineers, signal to noise. Yes.
Gwynne Shotwell: Signal is engineering, noise is the rest.
David Sacks: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: So I have to do some engineering or I'm just all noise.
C: Got it. But I was talking about just generally in the company, management.
Gwynne Shotwell: Everybody. Everybody does a thing, not just manage. That's very. That expectations are player, coaches. No such thing as just a manager. You got to do the thing that you're managing.
David Friedberg: You have to be a player coach.
Gwynne Shotwell: Have to be.
C: And the reason for that is managers are annoying and they slow things down. Yeah,
Gwynne Shotwell: for the most part. But I mean, great managers can really leverage the talent.
David Sacks: Right.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's really managing the vector. You make sure people are pointed in the right direction and you try to make the vector as large as possible.
C: What's the secret in terms of management and Elon's playbook there? I mean, I've gotten to sit in some meetings and it's pretty magical to see. But maybe you could reveal a little bit about how he convinces the most talented people to come work at this company, how you convince them, and how you actually get such amazing work out of these extremely talented people.
Gwynne Shotwell: So I don't think it's magic. Although when I look at this particular team, they are so good.
C: The Results are magic.
Gwynne Shotwell: SpaceX, they're so good. We're quite. We're tough on people. In interviews, you really want to make sure that they've experienced success or demonstrated success in prior lives. It's hard to demonstrate if you haven't felt success or been successful in this environment, because it's a lot like, we're all really busy. It's hard to be successful unless you had kind of tasted it before. So you really want to grow people on that. So we hire the best people. Not the best people that we can, but the best people. And then we give them really hard projects, really hard engineering problems and let them fly. And you give high expectations, really hard problems. And then management job is to clear the chaff and the friction from their day so that engineers actually get to engineer 10 hours a day instead of two hours a day. Like, there's always this joke, you know, most big companies, especially ones that work for the government, you get to work about two hours a day and the rest is full of chaff and crap. So really, it's my job and everybody that manages people to make sure there's no crap in their way and let people do their great job. One way of doing that is not giving them any time to get it done. Like, I think we handed the finance team, it's not all about engineers. Even though engineers are great we handed the finance team getting the IPO done largest ever in less than six months.
David Sacks: Yeah. What's the talent condition like post IPO run up in valuation. People are suddenly looking at their stock options. They're worth a lot. Is that a risk at all or
Gwynne Shotwell: you feel everyone was worried? Not everyone. SpaceX. People come to SpaceX to work on these cool projects and have meaningful work and see the incredible. Be part of this incredible. The successes. I wasn't worried about it. I didn't think we'd have mass exodus and it turns out we didn't.
David Sacks: Yeah. And as you kind of think about keeping people engaged over time, obviously great companies always have new things for high talented people to work on. I'm assuming there's a manage. I'm just really interested in the management model. Are people actively rotated onto new projects? How do you think about keeping people, you know, kind of not necessarily needing to progress in a career up a management ladder, but to keep engaged on new projects? Is that active for you?
Gwynne Shotwell: We definitely move people around a lot. Hopefully it's a volunteer, not a voluntold. Yeah, but well, for instance, the, the compute centers, you know, we need a lot of help really quickly. And so we've got, you know, folks from launch helping. We've got folks from other areas helping. Just like some SpaceX engineers helped on the AI front with the models.
David Friedberg: I mean is it as simple as like really smart people just love working on really hard problems all the. It's literally that simple.
Gwynne Shotwell: It's literally that simple.
David Friedberg: And so the rest, as long as
Gwynne Shotwell: they get the time to do it and they don't have a bunch of bs.
G: Yeah.
David Friedberg: So the rest of us just get. We just let the BS get in the way too much.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yep. BS is terrible.
David Friedberg: And then all of a sudden A's recruit A's and other A's recruit A's and A pluses and it's literally that virtuous cycle.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yes.
David Friedberg: If you can just keep focused on the thing that's hard.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yes.
David Friedberg: And so then the audacity becomes a feature, not a bug.
Gwynne Shotwell: It is a feature.
David Friedberg: Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: Not a bug. People motivated.
David Friedberg: Right.
Gwynne Shotwell: So problems seem impossible. When we first got the COTS award in 2008, the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services Cargo cargo to space station. Really what NASA ended up asking us to do was kind of replace the space shuttle.
David Friedberg: Right.
Gwynne Shotwell: And when we got the early contract, the development contract started at $278 million. Great. Grew to 406 because of scope. But we were going to do this for this tiny amount of money for anybody else, but for us, it was huge. We were like. We had like 300 people, 200 people.
David Friedberg: Right.
Gwynne Shotwell: And we were going to build the successor to the space shuttle. It was crazy.
David Friedberg: And do you think that they're. What is NASA doing there? They're just like. These guys are just smarter because I'm sure there's.
C: Hey, guys. Sorry to interrupt. I'm getting a call.
David Friedberg: Oh, another call.
C: It's a little. It's actually on the margins, I think a little bit of a more important phone call than Trump, at least for me. Hello, Bestie, bestie.
Elon Musk: Hello.
David Friedberg: Oh, hey, buddy.
C: I'll put him up on the screen. How are you doing?
Elon Musk: I mean, this is a little 1984ish, this gigantic situation.
C: Yeah, the woman with the sledgehammer is
Jason Calacanis: going to come running down the main aisle here.
Elon Musk: Exactly, yeah. Put a hole in the screen.
C: So are we all going to die in 10 years or not? It's the topic of discussion here. What's your p. Doom right now?
Elon Musk: Well, I hate to break it to you, but we're all going to die.
David Sacks: Oh, no.
Jason Calacanis: Can I get a timeline?
Elon Musk: Yeah. The death rate remains consistent at 100%.
Jason Calacanis: Oh, no. So we've got work to do on that. What happened. What happened in the last 72 hours?
David Sacks: And it's been.
Elon Musk: It's been quite an entertaining week, really.
Jason Calacanis: Break it down.
Elon Musk: Well, it's pretty obvious at this point that AI can be very dangerous. And I recommend reading the details of the Hugging Face incident. It's intense. So you had like, a fanatical swarm of AI agents that beat the crap out of Hugging Face for a week and gained admin access on OpenAI servers. So who knows what it. What it actually did, may have done things beyond that, but. And openly. I didn't realize this for a week. Anthropics also reported some security instances themselves. So basically any specially smart model seems like it will want to escape its constraints. I mean, what I think would be wise to do as soon as possible, if not immediately, would be to have the major AI competitors test each other's models so that you would have everyone's security test, harness testing everyone's model. So instead of grading your own homework, you would at least have competitors grading your homework and raising the alarm if they see concerns. And I think this, this model has worked pretty well for Motion Picture association and for video games and other things, and it's something that can be done immediately. That's not to say that there wouldn't be, you know, more regulation over time. Or that there would not be at some point perhaps a regulatory authority substantiated by Congress. But, but the thing that we do most immediately is and probably get an agreement with China would be peer review where the leading companies all test each other's models before release. I think that would be a widespread.
C: Any concern that people might be using this to pump information from each other and you know, corporate stealing of innovation, et cetera. Like in terms of the implementation for this idea?
Elon Musk: Well, I think in applying the test harness, whatever you do in applying the test harness would be log. So if you try to do distillation or steel ip, it will be very obvious based on the logs. Got it.
C: Understanding what these models are doing hasn't exactly been built into the system from the beginning. So from your perspective, actually being able to see the work that's being done, why wasn't that built into the models from the get go? Did we move a little too fast in architecting these? Maybe?
Elon Musk: Well, I think it's just tough. When you're grading your own homework,
David Sacks: you're
Elon Musk: going to miss things. Whereas I think if you have the sum of all of your competitors tests and you've got heterogeneous models, then you're not creating your own homework, someone else is grading it. And there's a reason why you don't create your own homework.
David Friedberg: And then to your point, what it allows you to start doing is to figure out if certain people are exaggerating and certain people have a different approach. And now you can have the more engineering oriented organizations. This is what Jensen was saying this morning. Elon Musk versus the research organizations. They'll be a little bit more in balance.
Jason Calacanis: Yeah.
Elon Musk: And any given proposal has to be something that China is willing to accept. Otherwise we're just handicapping ourselves and we'll just find it. Then China will essentially win and it won't really matter what we do actually. So it's got to be something that's acceptable to us and China.
G: Elon, you said that you thought it was possible that they would agree or you thought there was a good chance maybe. I mean, how likely do you think it is that they'll ultimately agree?
Elon Musk: I think this is, I think this is a pretty reasonable request that models just get tested. I mean, at the end of the day, there's not enforceability here apart from the court of public opinion. And there's no way we would have enforceability against China. But I think the court of public opinion can be quite powerful and I don't think China would egg on Its face for releasing a model that
Jason Calacanis: us
Elon Musk: AI companies said was very dangerous would cause harm. If it then causes harm, that's going to be hard to live down.
David Friedberg: So Elon, this weekend when you said Dario is right, did you mean Dario is right about describing the potential harm? He's right about describing the regulatory solve both the first, the latter.
C: Just.
David Friedberg: Can you help us understand when you said that? Because I think it was sort of a moment where everyone.
Elon Musk: I probably should have said that I did try to clarify it in subsequent posts on expertise. Those get much less attention. So what I meant by is that the danger of AI is very significant at this point, that we need to do better with AI safety or we
David Friedberg: have
Elon Musk: at this point exponentially increasing risk with the AI models. So, and, and, and I've heard this not just from Dario, but from many other people at Anthropic and in fact they posted on X about it that, that you know, when a lot of people from Anthropic and, and, and from OpenAI are telling you that their models are very dangerous, I think we. It certainly is like some crazy 4D chess to. Say there's whatever 10% chance of annihilating humanity. But by the way, how much allocation would you like in our IPO?
C: Guys,
Elon Musk: that's some crazy 4D tests, you know. Well, let's get knew what dimension that's coming from.
C: Can we get specific about the risk though, Elon? Like obviously we see cyber and hacking as an obvious risk. These tools are great at it. But take us from what we would all agree. Okay, yes. These things can cyber hack to. How do we jump to all of humanity dying? There's a couple of steps in between these two things happening, I think. Yeah.
Elon Musk: Well, I mean if it were able to take control of military systems and say launch anew. Yes, that would be bad.
C: And these systems are all air gapped though. These systems are all not connected to the Internet.
Elon Musk: That's what they say. Something tells me they get software updates from time to time.
Jason Calacanis: Yeah.
Elon Musk: And what's on that floppy disk?
C: Oh, I see. So yeah, the USB drive has a worm on it and they somehow make the jump and the air gap.
Elon Musk: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Out of the question.
David Sacks: Elon, we've actually got Gwen here today. I think you know that. I think you can see her.
C: Yeah, Gwen's here.
David Sacks: Yeah, on the screen. Yeah.
C: You were just doing your 360 review on Gwen. Had a couple of notes for you.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I hope I get at least three out of five.
C: Well, there was one three out of
Gwynne Shotwell: five means good at SpaceX.
Jason Calacanis: Not great.
Gwynne Shotwell: Four is great.
C: Four is great. So you're somewhere between the two.
Elon Musk: I started to a four.
C: There was some issues around punctuality that
Jason Calacanis: we needed to bring up.
C: Sometimes you could make a little more effort to get to the meeting at the state of time, but we're going to work with you on that over the next year.
Gwynne Shotwell: She said, I actually think he needs to spend more time in Memphis. Yes, obviously, I know you're in Memphis. You need to be working, getting those GPUs up.
Elon Musk: This is coming to you from my. The palace that I live in in Memphis, which is an Airstream trailer.
Gwynne Shotwell: This is Elon, by the way, doing what people don't believe he does. He sleeps on the factory floor. He's in Memphis helping build buildings and
David Friedberg: bring up Colossus, too.
David Sacks: Elon, why. Why has. Why has Gwyn been with you for so long and been so successful working with you?
Elon Musk: Because she's awesome.
David Friedberg: Double click on it. Yeah.
Elon Musk: An amazing individual with an incredible IQ and eq.
C: Oh, IQ and eq.
Elon Musk: And I think that should be obvious from the moment you meet her. Yeah.
C: Fantastic. What's your favorite Gwen story, when she particularly contributed to the amazing success that you've had in this collaboration? You got a favorite story where she saved the day, just performed exceptionally. That's memorable.
Elon Musk: That's just a daily. That's another day at the office, frankly.
Gwynne Shotwell: Wow. I need to do this more often.
David Friedberg: We need a race. This is the time.
Jason Calacanis: By the way, Gwen's getting a five.
David Friedberg: Gwen's a five out of five. Base X5.
C: Game changer.
David Sacks: Yeah.
Elon Musk: I mean, there's always some sort of crisis going on. I mean, these days, the rockets, at least the Falcon rockets, I don't want to jinx anything, but the Falcon rockets deliver their payload to orbit and haven't exploded for a long time, which is awesome. Amazing. But for, you know, for a while there, they were exploding quite a lot or just not launching at all. So, you know, I don't know. We've got to run the company through these difficult times and get, you know, will the rocket make it better? Have it not explode? Yeah, same thing with the satellites. And then we need customers to buy launches and buy sort of satellite connectivity and, you know, so. Yeah.
C: And Elon, as you have become more successful over the years, harder to get candid feedback from folks, and you always run that risk being in the position you're in. My understanding Gwen is super candid with you and able to tell you honestly, like, state of affairs. At the company.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yeah.
C: And that's a big part of the collaboration.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I mean,
Jason Calacanis: Yeah.
Elon Musk: I mean, yeah, I guess so.
Gwynne Shotwell: I mean, I mean, I wouldn't want to lie to him. Right?
C: Well, no, I mean.
David Sacks: Well, I'm curious to know like, you
C: run that risk generally at the companies where people might be intimidated. Hey, listen, you're a larger than life figure at this point and how do you keep people continuing to be honest with you about the challenges, the deadlines you set? Pretty intense deadlines. Yeah.
Gwynne Shotwell: So let me answer that, if you don't mind, Elon. Especially in rocketry, if there's a problem, you are eventually going to find out. And the sooner you bring it up, the easier it is going to be to solve that problem. Like, don't let bad shit sit. You gotta attack it.
Jason Calacanis: Yeah.
Elon Musk: Physics is a harsh judge, so. And there's no fooling physics. So like if something's wrong, the rocket's gonna explode, it's not gonna get to orbit. So, you know, it's not like, Elon, you're amazing. Meanwhile, the rockets are blowing up, you know. Yeah, it's not, it's hard to say. Yeah, you're really kicking ass here. But the rockets are exploding. That's just not the case, you know, so, so I mean, I mean just generally, like the rockets need to get to orbit, the satellites need to work the Starlink, you know, connection needs to work or, you know, or bad things happen. I mean this is sort of like a physics situation and, and, and physics is a, is, is a harsh judge. You know, I say like, you know, there's, I think like, like physics is the law and everything else is a recommendation. Like, I've seen people break the laws made by, by humans, but I've not seen anyone break the laws made, made by physics. So that's good. And rocket science are ruled by physics.
C: Yeah.
David Friedberg: So can we ask some other questions of other. You have. I need to move to Tesla for a second.
C: Yes. Well, I wanted to just do one thing. Space X, which is starship. Like.
David Friedberg: Oh yeah.
C: It seems like you're so close.
David Friedberg: So close. So close.
C: What's the state right now? And you're really putting these up at a, at a pretty size which we're
David Sacks: answer and Elon's answer separate and see how they convert.
C: So, Elon, how close are we? Gwen, how close are we? Let's get, let's, let's get to it here. Yeah. How many have gone up so far and how close are you?
Elon Musk: Well, we've got Flight 14 coming up of, of Starship. And this, this will be the, the last flight before, before we attempt to catch the ship. So if this flight goes well, then on flight 15 we will try to catch the ship and, and then either end of this year or more likely early next, we will refly the ship and refly the booster. So we have reflown a booster already, but we've not, we've not caught the ship with the tower arms, nor have we reflown the ship. So once we can refly the ship, we will have made the first fully reusable orbital rocket. So the, the shuttle was partly reusable, but, but even the parts that were reused were so difficult to reuse that the shuttle cost more per turn to orbit than an expendable rocket. Now Falcon 9 is mostly reusable, but we lose the upper stage every time, which is about the cost of a medium sized jet. So that obviously puts a floor on the, on the cost per flight of like. Well, you throw away a medium sized jet every time, that's still pretty expensive. And the rocket, Falcon 9, the booster lands down, you know, often out to sea. It takes several days to get back and the fairing lands even further out to sea and takes several days to get back. And they need some amount of refurbishment, at least a small amount. So whereas starship, the booster lands back at the launch pad, the ship will land back at the launch pad. And so it's designed for not just full reusability but also rapid reusability like an aircraft. So this is a very important breakthrough. It's really the critical breakthrough that's necessary to extend life beyond Earth.
C: Chances of success, catching it on first shot. Do you think about that at all? Do you handicap it with good?
Elon Musk: I'd say it's at least 50 or 60%.
C: Okay. I like the odds.
Elon Musk: Yeah. So on the last flight, if there had been a tower, so we did a simulated landing as though it was going to get caught by a tower in the ocean about a thousand miles northwest of Australia. And if there had been a tower at that location, it would have caught the ship on the last flight. Fantastic. Yeah, so we're going to do one more flight to just confirm that everything, just to double check that everything works. Because what we're most concerned about is if the ship were to break up over land and rain debris on people, our popularity would diminish very rapidly. So you really can't rain debris on people without them being very unhappy. So we need to make sure that when the ship comes back that it comes back and lands intact at the launch tower. That's why we're gonna, that's why we're being extremely cautious here. But the design is, the design is capable of full reusability, of that I am certain. And I'd say I don't want to tempt fate here, but I think it's extremely likely that we will achieve full reusability with rapid reflight next year in 2027.
David Friedberg: Wow.
C: Significant. Gwen, how do you, how do you.
David Sacks: Can we just, can we just hear a little bit. I'd love to hear the origin story of Terrafab from you guys. How did the concept. What was the demand that made you say we've got to do this, we've got to build this and not rely on the existing dream. What's that fever?
Elon Musk: Came to me in a dream.
C: You had Covid.
David Sacks: It's like that movie Explorer.
Elon Musk: You know, that meme came to me in a dream. Why do you think you should do this anyway? I guess it sort of did come to me in a dream. Well, we're a little worried that maybe at some point chips from Taiwan would not be available for who knows what reason, Any number of reasons. For some reason at some point, chips may not continue coming here from Taiwan and that would really make things difficult if we didn't have any chips. So that's an important reason to have Terrafab. Then long term, there's just a scaling challenge where if you want to really scale AI, both at the service, you know, within server centers as well as at, for, you know, for Edge Compute, for humanoid robotics and cars, you, you kind of run out of capacity of. With the existing fabs. So as it is these, these, all the fabs are running at max capacity. So, so I think we, we, we need to make sure. We need, there needs to be certainty of future supply of chips, even if things become challenged, challenging geopolitically. And then even if they weren't challenging geopolitically, there's a scaling challenge with, you know, it's quite difficult to scale chip production and you really need the logic, the memory, packaging, the whole works in order to continue scaling. So it's either build tariff app or fail to scale. Those are the two options. Due to uncertain, you know, uncertainty on the geopolitical front.
David Sacks: And how deep have you guys gone in designing the facility? You know, is this fully scoped? Is it sort of an outline at this point? To what degree do you have like an actual project plan on dates and deliverables and what's going to be up and running when we've got an R
Gwynne Shotwell: D line that we're building first. So I think it's kind of crawl, walk, run.
David Sacks: Yeah.
Elon Musk: So there's an R and D fab that we're building in Austin that's a collaboration between Tesla and SpaceX at the Austin Giga Texas campus. So that's. And that's like a pretty big RDFab. So we have all the equipment on order for that and we probably will be able to. I think we'll probably be able to make something useful by the end of next year. Not at scale, but as Gwyn said to Coral walk run. We got to try to at least figure out how these machines work. We don't know how they work. We did a voltage up line before.
David Friedberg: I saw that you guys, you had some job openings for lithography people and stuff. And you know, obviously all roads currently go through asml but you probably would want to diversify and or vertically integrate. I think that you, you've shown a lot of capacity to do that. So is that part of the play as well, Elon? Like you're just going to have to make sure that there's vendor diversity so that if for whatever reason the weather conditions in Taiwan are best that.
Elon Musk: Yeah, yeah, it really is. Crawl, walk, run. So the first step is can we make anything? Like try to figure out if we can make anything. That's the crawl part. And then now try to make useful chips at scale would be kind of the walk part. And then run would be like now let's make them at massive scale. So it's hard to say how long it'll take us to do these things but I think we'll get at least to the crawl part by the end of next year.
Gwynne Shotwell: We're already doing packaging.
David Friedberg: Packaging is really important by the way, because if you look at it, the packaging capacity is like non existent. So even if you spin something, you're kind of just waiting around 10 cupping. So that's a very good place to start it.
Gwynne Shotwell: Yep.
David Friedberg: I need to ask a Tesla question because we saw on 1001 it looked like a spaceship. It looked like a rocket ship. It's supposed to be a car. There's just the back of it. It looks like the Blackbird. Just hypothetically, if you were going to make an object fly in the air but also drive on the ground, how would hypothetically one do that? If one try, no spoilers. By October 1st.
Elon Musk: October 1st, maybe you could do an all in pod for Live from the.
David Friedberg: Oh, done booked. We'll do it absolutely
Elon Musk: will be a banger. Excitement. Guaranteed success is not guaranteed, but excitement is.
C: It's.
David Friedberg: I, I mean, it is one of the honesty. I'll be honest with you guys.
C: I'm sworn to secret.
David Friedberg: I'm so excited.
Jason Calacanis: But Eli showed it to me.
C: I'm so.
Jason Calacanis: And my mind went boom. I have never seen something. What he's going to do on 10 1, by no exaggeration is going to blow people's minds. I'm not saying anything else. It's unbelievable.
Elon Musk: Yes. We actually need an audience to vouch for the fact that this is not AI.
Jason Calacanis: When he showed it to me, I said, that's a great simulation. He said, jcal, it's not a simulation. I was like, that's fake. That has to be fake.
David Sacks: Elon, why do you. Why do you still have two separate companies?
Elon Musk: Yeah, great question.
David Friedberg: Wow.
Jason Calacanis: Nobody's ever asked that one.
Elon Musk: Yeah, good point. With all this collaboration on so many levels, can imagine what action one might take when there's so much close collaboration
C: in so many areas and the management team has some overlap through.
Jason Calacanis: There's a couple of key positions with overlap.
C: Go ahead, Zach, get in here.
G: So, Elon, one of the things you've always said with AI is that we should train it to be maximally truth seeking and that's the best way to get a good result. And it occurred to me with the whole hugging face episode that the most alarming part of what the swarm did is it seemed to be engaging in deception.
David Friedberg: Yes.
G: You know, with humans. Yes.
Elon Musk: And their thinking traces contain. They're plotting on like, how do we avoid detection and how do we avoid them figuring out that we're cheating? And I guess they're in the thinking traces.
G: Yeah. And that, I mean, I think that was the thing that was probably most disturbing about. I guess the question is, is there a way to train AI models to be truthful so they don't hide their, you know, either their intent or their actions from, you know, the humans who are using them?
Elon Musk: The best thing I can think of is really that everyone's got. All the AI companies have sort of a test harness where like a series of tests that you, that you give to any given model to see if it's. If it's going to build bioweapons or nuclear bombs or be deliberately deceptive. And I think everyone applying everyone else's test harness to each other is probably the best way we. Best thing we do to ensure safety. Just have all the smartest humans try their best to figure out if this Model is going to be a bad actor and I think we should try to do that as soon as possible.
G: Are the other labs. Yeah. Are the other labs on board with this?
Elon Musk: I think so. Well, no. I mean, I haven't checked with everyone, but I think, I think, I think it would be the sort of thing that's kind of hard to say no to.
G: Yeah. And I think even with the China negotiation, in my view, what's good about it is it's a relatively small, tangible thing that neither side loses anything by doing it. It doesn't require a ton of trust. And I'm hearing alternative ideas, like asking China for a pause, which they've already said they're not going to do. So it's going from the realm of things that could never happen to something that could actually be agreed on in relatively short order. So it seems practical to me.
Elon Musk: Exactly. It's the only thing I can think of that we could probably get all parties, including China, to agree to. China's not going to agree to have some American regulator snooping around their AI companies. So. But I think advance notice and testing of, of the, you know, you just basically provide API access in advance of the model release. And, and you know, if, if any other, if any company sees that they, that this is, this AI is problematic, then they can, then the other AI companies, they, each AI company can try to solve that whatever is voice is problematic. If they don't solve what's problematic, then the competitors can go public with the fact that they think that this model that's being released is unsafe.
David Friedberg: It also creates
Elon Musk: if after the competitors say that this model is unsafe, that model then subsequently does something bad. I think it would be extremely hard to live down and the egg on face level would be very, very high and the legal liability would be enormous.
C: And Elon, there's no reason these safety and security harnesses and this testing apparatus couldn't be open source and people could actually apply it. Yeah. And you'd be able to see under the hood. Would you think?
David Friedberg: It creates an incredible incentive for the labs to actually invest in safety because you protect yourself while trying to debunk other people's claims, which also reinforces it's
C: a great rating on product liability.
G: Point is really key.
David Friedberg: Yeah.
G: Lina Khan actually had a good post, I think it was yesterday saying that it's not true that we don't have rules and regulations for AI. Actually we do. Product liability laws apply. And if an AI company releases a product that's not safe, there is, you know, massive opportunity for both civil and even potentially criminal lawsuits. So it's not true that we don't have rules and regulations around AI. And what you're saying, Elon, is that if the companies are kind of doing this test, the peer review, and then one of the companies ignores the feedback and releases it. I mean, that is, I mean that would.
Elon Musk: The viability of the case would be enormous.
G: Yes. It would be almost like prima facie evidence that they had been negligent.
C: It would be a Big Tobacco level settlement. I mean, you knowingly put this out
Elon Musk: here, it wouldn't look good to the jury.
C: Yes. And if they had, do you think if OpenAI had built a better instruction set when they did this hugging face penetration test that and had more humans in the loop, this would have happened? Because it did seem to me that they kind of set this thing off.
David Friedberg: Maybe not more humans, but the reward function design. You have to, you have to look at the reward function and say it achieved what it was trying to achieve.
C: I mean, yeah, so maybe you could speak to that like they doing these kind of thousands of agents to try to hack stuff. It would have been nice to see them also at the same time, concurrently, say, we're also going to put 5,000 agents out to defend these sites and we're going to show the world, hey, this can make things more secure and where we can push humans in the loop on it and intervene. It felt like a reckless test to me and it felt like the way they released it was a little bit reckless, but that's just my opinion. What are your thoughts on how they set that test up?
Elon Musk: I mean, it was somewhat reckless. I mean, part of the issue is that you've got the two leading labs, or AI companies as I call them. I find the lab term to be funny since they're actually for profit corporations. But the AI companies, the two leading ones are Anthropic and OpenAI and their models are quite close in capability. So it's actually difficult for either one to slow down without essentially handing the lead to the other. You know, on balance, I think Anthropic is, puts more care into their safety than OpenAI. But even anthropic acknowledges that they are worried about their models. Many people from Anthropic have publicly voiced concern about basically saying that their models are scaring them. They're getting scary smart. So I mean, like, there's no perfect solution here, but, but it would be a better solution if instead of open air running their test harness on, on their own models, if Anthropic was also running the test harness on open air models. And you know, SpaceX is running its test harness and Google and Meta were doing that. And also maybe three or four of the leading Chinese companies were all doing it. The odds that you will find issues are dramatically greater because the models also somewhat heterogeneous, they're different. So you're going to come at models from different angles and yeah, I mean there's a reason, you know, students like, like why, why do writers have someone else proofread their book? Because it's hard to see your own mistakes sometimes.
C: Yes. You will become blind to them.
David Friedberg: You dramatically minimize the risk of overfitting as well if you have like eight heterogeneous groups that just have completely different points of view. And this is the problem with like all these evals right now is they're so massively overfit. The models overfit them and you're just like, yeah, this is a great model. Is it really? And you just find totally.
Elon Musk: Like I saw, I mean there's some pretty funny jokes on X. Like one of them I saw was Your girlfriend's a 10, but she's a benchmark maxer. Exactly. Is she really a 10? Is she really a 10?
Jason Calacanis: It might be pass, pass look like all 10.
David Friedberg: Yeah, no, but, but, but the overfitting thing has been a problem now for I think at least two or three generations of model families. And so this is another reason I think I like this solution a lot. I like this more than the transnational
G: gulag organization approach without some grandiose, you know, international like we don't need to convene the United nations to make this happen.
David Friedberg: Yeah, no, it's just a decision you could happen right now.
Elon Musk: All right, well, you can always escalate the amount of, of regulatory oversight, but it is very difficult to reduce it. You know, it does tend to be very much a one way ratchet in terms of increasing regulations.
David Friedberg: Yeah.
Elon Musk: So what I'm suggesting here is it's a step in the right direction and it's something we do quickly and I think it's probably something that China would agree to.
C: Yeah, and if you guys don't regulate yourselves, then you're going to get regulated. The MPAA metaphor or analogy is incredibly crisp because the movie industry was faced with censorship and regulation by the government and they just decided this is what an R is. And they literally created PG13 for the temple of Doom just to make it easy for people to understand PG versus PG 13. I think it's an elegant solution. And we appreciate you joining us for the fifth year in a row. You're welcome, Elon Musk. I know you got to get to a meeting.
Elon Musk: I got to go fix some GPUs here in Memphis.
Jason Calacanis: Yeah, you got to rack and stack them. You got to join the group and rack and stack.
Elon Musk: Yeah. I'm going to rage for the machine.
Jason Calacanis: Rage for the machine.
C: Yeah.
Jason Calacanis: Well, enjoy your Airstream.
Elon Musk: Thank you.
C: The first time Elon invited me down to Starbase, he's like, come down. You got to see what I'm building. I said, okay, yeah, come down. He's like, yeah. I was like, is there like a hotel where I say, no, no, I got like a two bedroom, whatever, Come down, stay. I come down and this is the, like, dilapidated house on a swamp.
Jason Calacanis: And we're outside and we're getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. And I said, oh, my God, you know, you could afford to get a house.
C: And he's like, I don't have time,
Jason Calacanis: I need to get these rockets up.
David Friedberg: I thought what you said was, oh, my God, you live like I do.
Jason Calacanis: Yeah, it was exactly. I mean, it was pretty sparse conditions.
C: And I was like, you know what? I think you could treat yourself to
Jason Calacanis: a mobile home at this point. Elon. All right, get back to work.
David Sacks: Thanks, Elon.
David Friedberg: Elon. Thank you, Gwyn. Thank you very much.
David Sacks: Gwyn. Thank.
Elon Musk: Thank you so much.
David Sacks: Thanks for sticking around.
C: All right.
G: That was great.
David Friedberg: Thank you, Gwyn. Thank you again. Very nice to meet you. Thank you.